Day of prayer

Debate sobre la situación política

Day of prayer

Notapor Jacques el Vie May 08, 2020 11:19 am

Elinfiltrado

En comunión con tu querido presidente que acaba de declarar este dia, fin de la segunda guerra mundial, un dia de rezo y de acción de gracias.digo un padre Nuestro pensando en tí.

God save Trump.
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Jacques
 
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Re: Day of prayer

Notapor Jacques el Vie May 08, 2020 12:22 pm

Imaginaros un solo instante que un dirigente europeo decrete el dia del fin de la guerra 39-45 un día de rezo?

Y si gobernase la VOX y decretase el 1 de Abril fiesta nacional por ser el final de la guerra.?

Venga! Poner un poco de animación y de polémica en este foro!
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Re: Day of prayer

Notapor Belluga el Vie May 08, 2020 2:18 pm

Jacques, en Cataluña celebramos ( puesto que yo no celebró nada) el fin de la guerra de sucesión y más y más de un rezo se hace en honor de los que murieron obligados por esa supuesta derrota.

Así que ahora han victimizado a un montón de víctimas que se s pasan el día buscando verdugos que justifiquen su mal estar
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Re: Day of prayer

Notapor Elinfiltrado el Sab May 09, 2020 3:44 am

The fear is as ancient as civilization’s oldest surviving records. The hero of the Epic of Gilgamesh writhes in agony at the prospect of spending eternity groveling in dust being eaten by worms. Few people today may share Gilgamesh’s terror of consciously living forever in the dirt. Plenty, however, tremble before the possibility of eternal misery. Possibly this is a good time to help people realize that it simply will not be that way.
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Re: Day of prayer

Notapor Elinfiltrado el Sab May 09, 2020 3:47 am

There are over two billion Christians in the world, the vast majority of whom believe in heaven and hell. You die and your soul goes either to everlasting bliss or torment (or purgatory en route). This is true even in the land of increasing “nones”: Americans continue to anticipate a version of the alternatives portrayed in The Good Place: regardless of religious persuasion, 72% believe in a literal heaven, 58% in a literal hell.

The vast majority of these people naturally assume this is what Jesus himself taught. But that is not true. Neither Jesus, nor the Hebrew Bible he interpreted, endorsed the view that departed souls go to paradise or everlasting pain.
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Re: Day of prayer

Notapor Elinfiltrado el Sab May 09, 2020 3:51 am

The Hebrew Bible itself assumes that the dead are simply dead—that their body lies in the grave, and there is no consciousness, ever again. It is true that some poetic authors, for example in the Psalms, use the mysterious term “Sheol” to describe a person’s new location. But in most instances Sheol is simply a synonym for “tomb” or “grave.” It’s not a place where someone actually goes.

And so, traditional Israelites did not believe in life after death, only death after death. That is what made death so mournful: nothing could make an afterlife existence sweet, since there was no life at all, and thus no family, friends, conversations, food, drink – no communion even with God. God would forget the person and the person could not even worship. The most one could hope for was a good and particularly long life here and now.
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Re: Day of prayer

Notapor Elinfiltrado el Sab May 09, 2020 4:08 am

Most people today would be surprised to learn that Jesus believed in a bodily ETERNAL LIFE HERE ON EARTH, instead of eternal bliss for souls, but even more that he did not believe in hell as a place of eternal torment.

In traditional English versions, he does occasionally seem to speak of “Hell” – for example, in his warnings in the Sermon on the Mount: anyone who calls another a fool, or who allows their right eye or hand to sin, will be cast into “hell” (Matthew 5:22, 29-30). But these passages are not actually referring to “hell.” The word Jesus uses is “Gehenna.” The term does not refer to a place of eternal torment but to a notorious valley just outside the walls of Jerusalem, believed by many Jews at the time to be the most unholy, god-forsaken place on earth. It was where, according to the Old Testament, ancient Israelites practiced child sacrifice to foreign gods. The God of Israel had condemned and forsaken the place.
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Re: Day of prayer

Notapor Elinfiltrado el Sab May 09, 2020 4:09 am

In the ancient world (whether Greek, Roman, or Jewish), the worst punishment a person could experience after death was to be denied a decent burial. Jesus developed this view into a repugnant scenario: corpses of those excluded from the kingdom would be unceremoniously tossed into the most desecrated dumping ground on the planet. Jesus did not say souls would be tortured there. They simply would no longer exist.

Jesus’ stress on the absolute annihilation of sinners appears throughout his teachings. At one point he says there are two gates that people pass through (Matthew 7:13-14). One is narrow and requires a difficult path, but leads to “life.” Few go that way. The other is broad and easy, and therefore commonly taken. But it leads to “destruction.” It is an important word. The wrong path does not lead to torture.

So too Jesus says the future kingdom is like a fisherman who hauls in a large net (Matthew 13:47-50). After sorting through the fish, he keeps the good ones and throws the others out. He doesn’t torture them. They just die. Or the kingdom is like a person who gathers up the plants that have grown in his field (Matthew 13:36-43). He keeps the good grain, but tosses the weeds into a fiery furnace. These don’t burn forever. They are consumed by fire and then are no more.

Still other passages may seem to suggest that Jesus believe in hell. Most notably Jesus speaks of all nations coming for the last judgment (Matthew 25:31-46). Some are said to be sheep, and the others goats. The (good) sheep are those who have helped those in need – the hungry, the sick, the poor, the foreigner. These are welcomed into the “kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” The (wicked) goats, however, have refused to help those in need, and so are sent to “eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” At first blush, that certainly sounds like the hell of popular imagination.

But when Jesus summarizes his point, he explains that the contrasting fates are “eternal life” and “eternal punishment.” They are not “eternal pleasure” and “eternal pain.” The opposite of life is death, not torture. So the punishment is annihilation. But why does it involve “eternal fire”? Because the fire never goes out. The flames, not the torments, go on forever. And why is the punishment called “eternal”? Because it will never end. These people will be annihilated forever. That is not pleasant to think about, but it will not hurt once it’s finished.

And so, Jesus stood in a very long line of serious thinkers who have refused to believe that a good God would torture his creatures for eternity. The idea of eternal hell was very much a late comer on the Christian scene, developed decades after Jesus’ death and honed to a fine pitch in the preaching of fire and brimstone that later followers sometimes attributed to Jesus himself. But the torments of hell were not preached by either Jesus or his original Jewish followers; they emerged among later gentile converts who did not hold to the Jewish notion of a future resurrection of the dead. These later Christians came out of Greek culture and its belief that souls were immortal and would survive death.

From at least the time of Socrates, many Greek thinkers had subscribed to the idea of the immortality of the soul. Even though the human body dies, the human soul both will not and cannot. Later Christians who came out of gentile circles adopted this view for themselves, and reasoned that if souls are built to last forever, their ultimate fates will do so as well. It will be either eternal bliss or eternal torment.

This innovation represents an unhappy amalgamation of Jesus’ Jewish views and those found in parts of the Greek philosophical tradition. It was a strange hybrid, a view held neither by the original Christians nor by ancient Greek intelligentsia before them.

Still, in one interesting and comforting way, Jesus’ own views of either eternal reward or complete annihilation do resemble Greek notions propagated over four centuries earlier. Socrates himself expressed the idea most memorably when on trial before an Athenian jury on capital charges. His “Apology” (that is, “Legal Defense”) can still be read today, recorded by his most famous pupil, Plato. Socrates openly declares that he sees no reason to fear the death sentence. On the contrary, he is rather energized by the idea of passing on from this life.

For Socrates, death will be one of two things. On one hand, it may entail the longest, most untroubled, deep sleep that could be imagined. And who doesn’t enjoy a good sleep? On the other hand, it may involve a conscious existence. That too would be good, even better. It would mean carrying on with life and all its pleasures but none of its pain. For Socrates, the classical world’s most famous pursuer of truth, it would mean endless conversations about deep subjects with well-known thinkers of his past. And so the afterlife presents no bad choices, only good ones. Death was not a source of terror or even dread.

Twenty-four centuries later, with all our advances in understanding our world and human life within it, surely we can think that that both Jesus and Socrates had a lot of things right. Jesus taught that in this short life we have, we should devote ourselves to the welfare of others, the poor, the needy, the sick, the oppressed, the outcast, the alien. We should listen to him.

But Socrates was almost certainly right as well. None of us, of course, knows what will happen when we pass from this world of transience. But his two options are still the most viable. On one hand, we may lose our consciousness with no longer a worry in this world. Jesus saw this as permanent annihilation; Socrates as a pleasant deep sleep. In either scenario, there will be no more pain. On the other hand, there may be more yet to come, a happier place, a good place. And so, in this, the greatest teacher of the Greeks and the founder of Christianity agreed to this extent: when, in the end, we pass from this earthly realm, we may indeed have something to hope for, but we have absolutely nothing to fear.
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Re: Day of prayer

Notapor Elinfiltrado el Sab May 09, 2020 4:14 am

Si quereis saber mas sobre este asunto leer el libro escrito por Bart D.Ehrman titulado Heaven and hell a History of the Afterlife.
JAcques, como veras se algo del asunto asi que no "SOY MAS BURRO QUE UN ARADO"simplemente por tener otras creencias diferente a las tuyas y exponer mis puntos de vista.
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Re: Day of prayer

Notapor Elinfiltrado el Sab May 09, 2020 4:26 am

I

But Socrates was almost certainly right as well. None of us, of course, knows what will happen when we pass from this world of transience. But his two options are still the most viable. On one hand, we may lose our consciousness with no longer a worry in this world. Jesus saw this as permanent annihilation; Socrates as a pleasant deep sleep. In either scenario, there will be no more pain. On the other hand, there may be more yet to come, a happier place, a good place. And so, in this, the greatest teacher of the Greeks and the founder of Christianity agreed to this extent: when, in the end, we pass from this earthly realm, we may indeed have something to hope for, but we have absolutely nothing to fear.
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Re: Day of prayer

Notapor Elinfiltrado el Sab May 09, 2020 4:39 am

Estoy leyendo parte de estos comentarios y a pesar de las muchas opiniones sobre la creencia de que Jesus es el hijo de Dios y su represnetante en la Tierra, yo sigo diciendo, al igual que lo dice Socrates en uno de sus comentarios, que nadie sabe lo que nos espera despues de la muerte. Espor eso que sigo siendo mas BURRO QUE UN ARADO, y no me im pirtan de las opiniones que tengan otros, por muy inteligentes y filosofos que sean. Y en verdad muchas de las creencias sobre el unfierno, el cielo y Jesus han cambiado con los tiempos. Y sigo diciendo que Jesus era un tipo fenomeno que estaba a la altura de otros pensadores y filsofos, tal como Socrates y Plato, pero que se adjudico el poder de Divino, para poder implicar mas a las masas y tratar de hacer una mas justa sociedad. Sin esa adjudicacion de Divinidad e hijo de Dios, la mayoria de sus folosofias y pendamientos, no habrian salido adelante y habria sido un Socrates o Plation mas. Pero su obstinacion y ambicion de hacer una sociedad mas justa llevo a Jesus al sacrificio de ser crucificado. El resto es simplemente historia y demagogeria por parte de sus seguidores. Si dar mi opinion, Jacque, me hace ser MAS BURRO QUE UN ARADO, pues adelante, pque yo seguire siendo un burro.
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Re: Day of prayer

Notapor Elinfiltrado el Sab May 09, 2020 4:40 am

Si alguien necesita traduccion de las partes que inserte en estos foros, por favor, me lo dicen y yo gustosamente les hago la traduccion, a pesar de ser un BURRO. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Day of prayer

Notapor Elinfiltrado el Dom May 10, 2020 3:02 am

Nota.Este comentario va dirigido al coordinador del foro. No era mi intencion meter el comentario 3,09 en ingles en estos foros .Solo unos pocos lo van a comprender. Pero por eror lo meti. Mi intencion era meter cortos comentarios y traducirlos. Pero por error meti el largo comentario 3.09. Si pueden borrarlo, por favor, lo hacen. Gracias. Yo no puedo borrarlo o no se como hacerlo.
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